Posted By 1putt1 on 09-18-2010 03:24 PM

ArtMB: Why include private courses that are not part of a package but discard public courses that are not part of a package?

I thought it was useful to include the private courses with the package courses, because there have been opportunities to play the private courses and I thought MB counted them when they were trying to get to 100 courses.           

Just read an depth an article from 14-March-1968 titled "18 Golf Courses In This Area Soon". After going over all the newly proposed courses under development and the ones that are currently operational (including Conway & Carolina GCs), the article immediately after that said "A vast majority of the golfers who have been coming to the strand since fall have taken advantage of the golf package offer that involves all courses and many motels and restaurants".

So there is good reason to believe that Conway & Carolina GC's were part of a golf package at one time in history, quite possibly the by-product of their being charter members of the Grand Strand Area Golf Association.

Interestingly, one of the new golf courses under construction (or in the proposed/design stage) was called Cherry Grove, and there were references about it in a couple other articles. They couldn't have been referring to Robbers Roost because they mentioned RR in addition to Cherry Grove as the list of courses proposed or under construction. Does anyone know anything about Cherry Grove Golf Course? It was slated to be an 18-hole regulation course and I can't figure it out. Maybe it never made it past design stage or ran into zoning issues and never happened?

FYI, I'm saving all the articles I printed out, if anyone wants copies I'll be glad to provide a set.

Bob,

While early visitors to MB must have played those old courses, I remember reading articles claiming that the guy who built Bay Tree in 1972 along with the builder of The Caravelle invented the golf package.

I have never read any article that mentions a proposed Cherry Grove golf course. You could wonder if that property eventually became Tidewater.

Defining the parameters is difficult. I would think the private courses with big name architects and golf communities around them would go without saying. On the other hand, 9 hole courses are hardly 'destination' courses for the MB golf package which is why these have not been included in any previous lists. That being said, we still have WW Hummingbird counted as 0.5 course so unless we want to remove it entirely, I see no problem including these since you've done the research.

Geographically speaking, Conway and Loris are certainly more 'MB' than Magnolia Greens or Cape Fear south of the Wilmington river or Winyah Bay or Wedgefield on the other side of the Intracoastal bridge or out in the ocean like Bald Head. All 3 incl Northern Pines are listed in the golf course directory of golfnow.com (you know, the site that the obnoxious Michael Breed pushes on Golf channel) as a MB area course- 


Under these same standards, I would also argue to include Lakes Country Club (formerly Fox Squirrel) in Boiling Springs, as it is closer to MB than numerous courses in Southport and Oak Island. The course, unlike the three 9 holers, is 18 holes (6700+ yds) and has a website even.  It was opened in 1962 and Ed Riccoboni/ George Alaboney were the architects. It is listed as a Wilmington area course on golfnow.com and numerous NC visitor sites along with all the others on our list south of the river.

I will include all 4 on my next spreadsheet using your research and mine. I see you've removed all doubt for the open date of Quail Creek so I'll remove it from the questionable list. Thanks, Bob !

Kgee:  another one to remove from the questionable list is Burning Ridge East confirmed to have opened in 1986. Also, looks like Wachesaw Plantation didn't actually open for play until 1986.

Both of these courses had a "preview" day in late 1985 (along with Heritage Club) open only to writers & those in the golf industry, but didn't open for general play until 1986. I don't count such preview outings as the official start date.

Deer Track (south) opened 9 holes in Spring 1981 and then opened the second 9 in Spring 1982. Not sure how to handle these split-nine openings in the list where one nine opens for play and the second nine isn't opened until a year later. They occur often (ie., Dunes 49/50, Surf 60/61, etc.).

Add Rees Jones to Gene Hamm's name as the architects of River Oaks original 18. Jones laid out the plans and Hamm finished the job. Rees Jones should also be added to Ken Tomlinson as designer of Tidewater. Tomlinson hired Jones to draw up plans for the layout, then Ken constructed the course with his own team using Jones' plans.

DeBordieu actually had a 9-hole course in place for members only before the Dye's built what we now know as DeBordieu. It was constructed by the previous developer/owner of DeBordieu Wallace Pate but I don't know any dates nor can I find information on the course (ie., whether it was regulation, executive, or par 3). Sounds like Pete and PB Dye just plowed over the previous track.

Will consider adding Lakes CC to my list. My only concern is if distance rules are used then it opens a new can of worms as I'm sure there are other courses inside the same distance window that would have to be included even though their impact on Grand Strand golf is minimal.

I'm currently using the library archives of Sun News for before 1980 and the On The Green articles for after 1980. While the OTG magazine articles are more accurate than golf websites or Woodrum's book, I'll eventually re-check the post 1980 stuff with Sun News archives when there are rainy days this winter as the newspaper articles are accurate to the day!

Thanks on clearing up Burning Ridge and Wachesaw. I agree that open to general public is the date to use.

I think as far as split 9 openings are concerned, we should use the year that the full 18 was open if the intent was for an 18 hole course, so 82 for DT, 50 for Dunes, etc. Or, in the case of Magnolia Greens, where the 3 nines were open separately, just use the last year since the orig plan was for 27 holes. In the case of Whispering Pines or Winyah, where it was open as a 9 hole only, then both dates are worth noting.  

Would add Rees Jones to the Comments column on those two, if he is not mentioned as the designer or if he doesn't take credit on his website for them.

Lakes CC is not a matter of distance. You go past it to get to Lockwood, Oak Island, St James, BHI, etc. It is a full regulation course (6700 from the back tees, rating 72.9/129) as opposed to the 9 hole courses. The 3 9-holers also have minimal Grand Strand impact too but the four merely would complete our lists geographically rather than package play wise. There are no other regulations courses between Magnolia Greens and Wedgefield or Diamondback/Northern Pines and BHI that we are missing other than these 4 so we might as well just match our lists to golfnow's complete US course listing.

Yes, the pre-80's is where to concentrate your efforts, as records from that era are sparse. Looks like we're down to just Whispering Pines and River Oaks at this point unless your research uncovers new dating contradictions. Thanks for your time and efforts, Bob !

Whispering Pines is looking to be an enigma. Currently in the middle of 1988 of OTG articles and it's still referred to as MB Air Force Base golf course. No mention so far whether it was 18 holes yet.

If there are no other missing regulation courses between BHI/Magnolia and Wedgefield then adding Lakes CC makes sense to make a geographically complete list. FYI, the 9-holers don't have an impact today on Grand Strand golf but they did back in their day.

Will add Rees Jones to the comments section for RO & TW.

In my list I'll probably refer to split nine openings as 1960/61 for Surf, 1949/50 for Dunes, and 1981/82 for Deer Track south. For courses that added an extra nine more than a year later (eg., Brierwood, Whispering Pines, Winyah) that'll get it's own line.

Yes, it has been difficult to find Whispering Pines history, the other is MB National. Keep plugging on your end.
 
In my orig post about Lakes Country Club, I corrected the opening year (this Golf magazine link is specific about Jan 1962) https://handicaptracker.golf.com/golf-course/course.asp?id=20400
and architect names. Ed Riccoboni (orig sic) apparently has a lot of SC golf course designs along the I95 corridor in his resume and the other name, George Alaboney is mentioned by golfnow.com and Golf magazine so I'll list both as the architects.

Since you live there, here's a link to golfnow.com's comprehensive list of 67 Wilmington area golf courses which incl many MB related courses. http://www.golfnow.com/course-direc...lf-courses

The Lakes is the only regulation 9 or 18 holes course that I can see between Magnolia Greens/ Leland and NMB unless you notice anything that I missed. For historical perspective, it is noted on many sites as the oldest golf course in Brunswick County and the first golf course communities constructed in the area.
I'll look at your sheet when you're done but I don't see the point in obsessing over when each 9 opened if they were within a year of each other and 18 holes was the ultimate plan. I see the first 9 as a 'preview'.

Mr Kgee -- Quote -  "Lakes CC is not a matter of distance. You go past it to get to Lockwood, Oak Island, St James, BHI, etc. It is a full regulation course (6700 from the back tees, rating 72.9/129) as opposed to the 9 hole courses. "

You don't go past The Lakes turn-off ( HWY 87) for anything other than CFN and MG. It is well north of Lockwood and HWY 211 used to reach BHI, St.James and Oak Island. It is midway on HWY 87 between 17 and 133. HWY 87 is probably about mile marker 32 or so ( HWY 211 is mm 22). But it is a legimitate course and struggling along on local play. I guess you have to draw a line somewhere or Olde Fort ( first place I broke 90) , another 18 hole course on HWY 133 between ILM and Southport will be on the list.

Posted By ArtMBGolf on 09-19-2010 12:34 AM
Bob,

While early visitors to MB must have played those old courses, I remember reading articles claiming that the guy who built Bay Tree in 1972 along with the builder of The Caravelle invented the golf package.

I have never read any article that mentions a proposed Cherry Grove golf course. You could wonder if that property eventually became Tidewater.

I think Cherry Grove turns into Eagle Nest. Haven't gotten to the 70s yet to confirm, but that seems to be the only possibility. In an article from Summer 1969 they said 18 holes are expected by Fall 1969 and 36 total holes are planned at Cherry Grove.

FYI the first golf package was made in 1961 when Howard Johnson's was packaged with Pine Lakes. In the mid-60s the popular plan was a $99 deal  for 7-days golf, 6-nights lodging, with meals and no green fees at the area courses. That was kicked off by the owner of the Caravelle who went out on his own when other hotels wouldn't chip in and pool advertising resources. By 1967 after seeing all the cars in the Caravelle parking lot other motels wanted in and the Pine Tree Corporation was formed (who eventually would build Possum Trot and Robbers Roost). Roughly 60 motels joined the package plan by that time. In 1969 a competitor named Golf Holiday entered the package business while the owner of the Caravelle (and principal of the Pine Tree Corporation) died unexpectedly. Well, that's the general gist of the history of the MB golf package.

Kgee:  I've finished going through the On The Green magazines for the period 1980-1990. Below is a summary of my observations & changes. Unfortunately, the OTG mags only gave confirmed open dates in a handful of cases, unlike newspaper articles which are more precise. So below I list the confirmed changes, probable changes, and possible/unresolved conflicts with our prior listings. The other courses from the 1980s the spreadsheet dates are consistent with the OTG articles. Haven't been back to the library lately to continue the journey through the 70s but will do so next week upon return from a trip.

BTW, Fox Squirrel golf course did advertise in OTG magazine in the late 80s/early 90s. Also uncovered some interesting tidbits along the way regarding other courses. For example, in 1990 Myrtle Beach Farms hired Arthur Hills to design an oceanfront golf course just to the south of the Dunes Club between the ocean and ICW. Guess that fell through. Also, the Pearl was originally slated to be a 72 hole facility. Forest Brook Links was a course that never made it past planning phase just north of 544 along the ICW. Bear Bluff and Seniors Club were two more courses that never made it past planning phases (along I-90 east of Shaftesbury and on 905 in Longs, respectively). Brick Landing and Calabash Links originally were slated to be 36-hole facilities

Confirmations
1) Deer Track - Opened first 9 in spring 1981, opened second 9 in spring 1982.
2) Burning Ridge (east) - Opened 1986.
3) Sea Trail - Opened Spring 1990. This course was an enigma of sorts. Following the chain of OTG articles the course was actually first slated to open Fall 1988, then a couple articles mentioned it being set to open Fall of 1989. However, that was written just before Hurricane Hugo, which may have caused further delay. Finally, an advertisement for the course stated the course was officially opened in Spring 1990. Course reviews didn't come until late 1990 so that is consistent with a Spring 1990 opening.
4) Heather Glen (3rd nine) - Confirmed opening in Spring 1990. Also, the 3rd nine was designed solely by Clyde Johnston (no help from Willard Byrd).

Probable/Likely Changes
1) Wachesaw Plantation - Opened spring 1986 (probable media opening Dec 1985).
2) Aberdeen - Probably opened 1990. Was listed in an article called "New for 1990". Also was nominated by Golf Digest as best new course for 1990. Didn't see any articles or advertisements suggesting a 1989 opening. It also appears that the 3rd nine (originally called the Tupelo course) was opened 1 year after the original 18. However can't tell whether this was late 1990 or early 1991. [Edit: Just came across 1997 article that said Aberdeen opened it's doors on Jan 1, 1990].

Possible or Unresolved Conflicts
1) Pearl east/west (1987 or 1988) - Two articles mentioned "slated for Fall 1987 open", however a 1989 article mentioned the Pearl opened "last year" meaning 1988 and the Pearl was a Golf Digest nomination for best new public course for 1988. I'd say leave as is until newspaper confirmation proves otherwise.
2) Heron Point (1988 or 1989) - May not have opened until 1989. Original plans had the course named "Myrtle Beach Golf and Yacht Club". Not much written. Most courses you could follow the development history in OTG and tell when they opened. In all cases the review they gave on the course took place shortly after the course opens. In Heron Point's case the review didn't happen until late 1989. So this is another one to leave as is unless newspaper confirms otherwise.
3) River Oaks (Bear nine) - Nothing written on the development on the 3rd nine. A review came out in the Spring 1991 issue but doesn't mention an opening date. So this is still unresolved.
4) Whispering Pines - No articles or advertisements in this period. There was only one quick blurb with club championship results but it still referred to the course as MB Air Force Base golf course. So Whispering Pines remains totally unresolved.

Edited Aberdeen in post above.

Bob; your confirmations are what I had on my latest sheet except for the Third nine at Heather Glen, so I'll change that one. Clyde Johnston, as I understand, was an employee of Willard Byrd's firm so while Byrd took credit on designs, others may have done most or all of the work. Some of Tim Cate's designs (like at Ocean Ridge) are in the same category before both branched off on their own. I have them credited for their separate work on HG's 3 nines.
Sea Trail's website mentions Spring 1990 opening for Jones and Byrd

If have a print article of Aberdeen opening 1/1/90, I'll go with that. I found numerous mentions of 1989 as 'built or open' but just as many referencing 1990 as well.

When I first played Pearl, there was talk of it eventually being an 6-8 course facility. This was after Wild Wing had it's 4 courses open. Obviously the money or ambitions dried up.

I already added Fox Squirrel and Olde Fort based on the other poster's comments. That should cover any and all regulation 9 or 18 holers between Wilmington River and Georgetown and Conway, Loris and the Atlantic. They just another line on a sheet and we may as well be as complete as possible. Thanks for plugging away at this on your end.

So far found only two things regarding Whispering Pines.

1) On the Green advertisements in the mid-90s saying the course was built in 1962 and had a major redesign in 1987.

2) Myrtle Beach Herald newspaper this month (Oct 2010 issue) had an extensive article on Whispering Pines. They said nine holes was built in the 1950s (which are today's 1-5, 9-10, and 17-18). In 1987, the second nine was built and consists of today's holes 6-8 and 11-16. Prior to 1993 the course operated as MB Air Force Base golf course only open to the military & their families. In 1993, the city of Myrtle Beach began operating the course.

So they seem to agree on a 1987 date for the 2nd nine, but disagree on the date for the 1st nine.

Posted By 1putt1 on 10-08-2010 08:49 PM
So far found only two things regarding Whispering Pines.

1) On the Green advertisements in the mid-90s saying the course was built in 1962 and had a major redesign in 1987.

2) Myrtle Beach Herald newspaper this month (Oct 2010 issue) had an extensive article on Whispering Pines. They said nine holes was built in the 1950s (which are today's 1-5, 9-10, and 17-18). In 1987, the second nine was built and consists of today's holes 6-8 and 11-16. Prior to 1993 the course operated as MB Air Force Base golf course only open to the military & their families. In 1993, the city of Myrtle Beach began operating the course.

So they seem to agree on a 1987 date for the 2nd nine, but disagree on the date for the 1st nine.

Bob, we haven't re-visited this in a while but there was a Sun News article just this week about the course exploring new management and says "The course opened on the base with nine holes in July 1962, then added another nine in 1987. " -
http://www.thesunnews.com/2010/11/1...black.html

This is somewhat consistent with their long existent full course listings page - http://www.thesunnews.com/static/co...llist.html
which claims 9 hole openings in 1962 and 1986, in that when Finger, Dye, Spann started adding the 9 holes in 1986, as I've read in other articles, they also renovated the existing 9 and reconfigured the routing so a 1987 opening of the full course would seem reasonable. As of now, I'll go with the 62, 87 instead of the 62, 84 I had before. I'll try to post my new spreadsheet sometime next month. Hope you're still golfing in decent weather !

Kgee: I'm still going through newspapers (complete through the first half of 1974). The one common theme I'm finding out is that I can't trust what is written today about what happened decades earlier. There are a number of incorrect dates as I'm finding out. For example, Eagle Nest was not 1971, Wedgefield didn't even start construction till spring 1973, Palmetto didn't open in 1972, only one of the MBN courses opened in 1973, etc.

Rather than go through all of our prior lists and cross-check for discrepancies (which takes extra time) I'll just post my findings at regular intervals (say 5-year chunks). It will take all winter to accomplish, but it's been an interesting voyage through history & am finding out cool factoids previously unknown about MB golf.

Sounds great, especially if you could make one list thru 1980 to start with, since that is when most of the discrepancies are. I'll look for your updates every so often. Have a great Thanksgiving !

Kgee:  I've completed 1965-1976 going through The Sun News. I've also finished 1925-1950. Below are my findings so far. Next step is 1951-1965. If you use any of the info below I'd appreciate a small reference. I only list the years below, in all cases I have the exact month or opening dates, but will save those for my book or wall chart

1925 - 1950

1927/1928 - Pine Lakes International. Originally Ocean Forest Club. Opened 9 holes in late 1927, had grand opening for all 18 holes in summer 1928. Ocean Forest did not have 27 holes open at any one time, although a 3rd nine was sketched out in the original design. To my knowledge this 3rd nine was never fully constructed nor opened as the depression hit in 1929. In 1944, Ocean Forest was re-named to Pine Lakes International. By 1946, the land for the 3rd nine along with 9 of the existing 18 holes was sold to a real estate developer. Robert White was then hired to re-design the remaining 9 holes in addition to build 9 more holes. There may have been more revisions in the 1950s but I haven't gotten there yet.
1949/1950 - Dunes Club. Opened 9 holes late 1949 and the second 9 in 1950.

1965 - 1976

1966 - Myrtlewood Pinehills. Originally "The Pines".
1966 - Litchfield.
1967 - Sea Gull.
1968 - Beachwood.
1968 - Quail Creek.
1968 - Robbers Roost.
1968 - Possum Trot.
1972 - Azalea Sands.
1972 - Eagle Nest.
1972 - Cypress Bay.
1972 - Bay Tree Gold.
1972 - Bay Tree Green.
1972 - Bay Tree Silver.
1973 - Myrtle Beach National Kings North. Originally, the North Course.
1974 - Myrtle Beach National West.
1974 - Arcadian Shores.
1974 - Wedgefield Plantation.
1974 - Myrtlewood Palmetto.
1974 - Deer Track Toski Links. Originally the North course.
1975 - Myrtle Beach National Southcreek. Originally the South course.
1975/1976 - Waterway Hills. Originally Arcadian Skyway. The first 18 opened in 1975, the 3rd nine opened in 1976.
1976 - Racoon Run.

Lingering Unknowns 1965-1975

In the early era of Grand Strand golf, not much attention in the newspaper was given to courses being built in Brunswick County. This includes:  Brierwood, Bald Head Island, Carolina Shores, and Ocean Isle. I may need to check out the Brunswick County newspapers for those confirmations.

I do know that the first hole-in-one on Carolina Shores was made in October 1975 and the course manager made a special trophy to commemorate the course's first ace. Carolina Shores was supposed to open in 1974, so it seems odd the first hole-in-one wouldn't occur until late 1975. So I suspect the course opened in 1975 not 1974.

Other questions remain for a couple nine-hole tracks supposedly developed in this era:  Northern Pines in Loris and Georgetown Country Club. The latter course was mentioned in the newspaper out of the blue in the early 70s and was listed as one of the 29 or so courses open at the time; however there was no article ever mentioning its development or opening. Again, courses outside the fringes of Myrtle Beach and North Myrtle were not covered well in the press at that time.

This includes:  Brierwood, Bald Head Island, Carolina Shores, and Brierwood.

Bob, are you smokin' some stuff???? Marijuana use is known to give you loss of memory, coughing fits, halitosis, and worst of all....loss of memory!